2012

[rck]

It’s that time of year again when we want all the rider input we can get for the 2012 season.
The past few years, with the exception of the Stockton series, rider count has been down, we have taken our series to some tracks with a low rider count and still had great racing, but I feel we were lucky.
We have a chance in 2012 to run some combined shows with mini-sprints, all on short tracks, in north-central Kansas and Southern Nebraska. Some of the possible tracks would be; Clay Center, Washington, Beloit, Fairbury, Nb. and possibly the short track at Belleville as a support class for some of their big car shows. This would be a compromise for our series, but I hope a positive one. Some of the advantages would be; racing on a variety of tracks, racing in front of larger crowds (with two different types of motorsports on the same program it will draw fans from each), it will give flat track racing more and new exposure and hopefully new fans and participants, it will be more attractive for future sponsors because of the increased attendance and the uniqueness of the program.
One of the negatives for a program such as this is time, stand alone programs for motorcycle-quad or mini-sprints, both, take between two or three hours to run, this would be too long of a show. The number of classes would need to be cut (everyone has heard that before), there are some classes that can not be tampered with such as the kids classes, you must have a place for your future riders to race. Our four biggest classes are; 150cc, Open Amateur, Vet 40 and Vintage Open Amateur. Is there a way we can combine some of the other classes with these? Should we have Pro and Amateur Quads? Should we have Pro and Amateur Vintage? Should we have more age group classes (50 and over, modern bikes legal, etc.) and fewer Vintage classes? Should we have only Amateur classes? How about all Pro or Pro-Am, (Pro-AM could pay 75% or 100% opposed to the Pro class that pays 150%)? These are just a few ideas, some a little far out, we need to know what will keep our regular racers coming back as well as attract new racers.
Many of our riders race more then one class, we still want to make that possible because, we know, the reason you are there is track time.
One of the first questions that will be asked is, “what kind of track will we have to race on?” I have talked to several of the mini-sprint people and they assured me that after their practice and heat races the track is smooth and, sometimes, with rubber down.
If you don't want to put your ideas on this site you can see me at the indoor in Nebraska or at the banquet or call me, I'll PM by phone number.
Randy

[kawasakifreak77]

All I know, is I want to race as much as possible!

If I've got a bike & you've got a track, I'll be there!

[brutus59]

One thing I would suggest would be a practice session similar to the Norton, Colby and Stockton races.

1) Modern Amateur
2) Vintage Amateur
3) Modern Pro
4) Vintage Pro
5) Mini's

I thought it worked very well. Running with like bikes and rider levels.

[tsmiley98]

The tentative race locations..

Fairbury Ne

2.5 hours from Western IA, 4.5 from central IA, 5 hrs from Sioux Falls SD, 3.5 from Wichita KS

Pretty centralized I would say and has potential to draw racers from those areas.

Clay Center, 2.5 from Wichita, 3.5 from western IA, 5.5 from central IA, 6 from Sioux Falls.

Washington, about the same as Clay center for drive times.

Beloit, 6.5 from Sioux falls, 4 from western IA, 6 from the center, 2.5 from wichita.

So the location of these races is favorable to pull more riders from the north. It may discourage some of the guys coming from down south though.

Well I think a class that is dwindling is the 400 vintage class. Myself, Josh and Bill have all raced that class and run in the vintage open as well. The 350's are still competitive in the vintage open am class.

I don't want to say have a vintage singles and vintage twins am class because there aren't too many twins out there. So if we cut a vintage class the 400 class will have to be on the chopping block for poor rider turnout. There just aren't enough twins in the open am to split the class that way. But I would limit the class to a 650cc. If there are "amateurs" riding pumped up 650 twin's they are more capable than an amateur. OR, people can get used to the 400 and Open guys running together and scored separate. Some of us will just run one less class. Not a big issue. I used to think I would never be able to run with the open am guys on my little 350, but after watching Bill run the same bike in several classes I saw there was little advantage on the small tracks. Advantage actually going to the smaller bikes not spinning or losing traction off the corners. The bigger bikes have more advantage on the 1/2 mile to a point. Stockton for example, I was passing guys on the corners only to have them drag race me on the straights, it cost me a 1st place on my 350 in the 600 vintage class because I came off the corner ahead and lost by a wheel at the line. I was ok with that since it is a trophy class and I did fine against bikes much larger than my own. So it isn't out of line to say they are still comparable.

Pro-Am.. sounds great but what are the limits/rules to keep people from cherry picking?

As far as more or less Age classes. I don't see how adding more age classes helps. Maybe I am wrong, but there are plenty of guys that could race in the vintage age classes who are racing in vintage am classes. They also seem to have no problem schooling us younger guys on a regular basis. It's not like they are running against the teenagers in the modern 250 am class. So I think adding more age restricted classes thins them down rather than putting more on the track. Lets face it, a two, three, or even four bike race is no fun to race or watch when they get strung out. At least with 6-8 bikes there are packs and some good racing going on in the front middle and back. If there comes to be an issue of age vs ability there are way too many examples of better older riders than young ones at least on the vintage side.

One compromise is to have a 45+ run what ya brung class, vintage, modern, its all good in that class. Or just leave it at 40+, I figure 45 is better since guys tend to be more worn out at 45 than 40. and a 50 year old could still feel competitive against a 45 year old vs a 40 year old. (I know I'm about to get some crap from some of the guys over the age thing) Good thing ancient Bill S doesn't have a computer and while Jody Hale could thump me any day of the week I don't think his eyesight is good enough to read all this so I think I'm safe.. ;D kidding with ya guys...

Bottom line is that in order to be able to race at more venues that have larger crowds we need to combine classes that are small. Even if we don't cut the classes. So at a venue where time becomes and issue vintage 400 runs with the vintage open am. 65's and 150's work well together. Vet 40 is plenty full and can hold its own. Maybe combine the modern open am and modern 250 am. Then there is a mess with Vintage pro twins and singles. Might have to combine them as well since there may not be enough bikes for a good show.

It's all about the race show

Crowds/Spectators make the promoter money. Racers draw the crowds. Matt George doesn't charge racers pit passes because they are the show and draw the crowd. We can't do this with the GPFTS because we don't have much of a crowd show up.

We need to suck it up as racers and realize it is all about the spectators. The turnout of the crowd will determine if a promoter is willing to have a race again next year.

Look at the NE indoor. its being run the same weekend as karts since running it alone was not profitable enough to make it worth while. Eventually it wont be worth anyones time and we wont be racing. Kind of a crappy way to lose a hobby we all enjoy.

So before there gets to be lots of gripes, bring some good ideas and solutions to the table with those complaints about how things are run.

[verticaltwin]

The Vintage 400 was combined with Open Vintage several times this year and it seemed like it worked out good. I'm open to anything, not sure what I'll ride in what class next year anyway... Have some projects to tinker on for the winter.

[priddydc]

How many races you still looking to have at Jeeps and 81 speedway this year. Will the races start earlier in the year.

[randymartin58]

These are my thoughts,use them or throw them in the trash ,I don't care.I think that the main reason we loose riders is due to change.I have been racing on and off again since the late 70's.Every time I quit was due to change.When I was in my 20's I couldn't wait to turn 30 so I could race the over 30 class and get away from those"crazy kids".When I turned 29 they did away with the over 30 class and upped it to the over 40 class.About that time they came out with something new,they called it vintage racing.How cool is this? Old men on old motorcycles.Racing was kind off down around here,with the lose of Kanopalis tt and the end of KMSA,so I joined AHRMA and started racing there series.They had a over 30 class and was for vintage bikes,with plenty of classes,What else could you ask for.I bought a newer Astro and wanted to race it,but after dumping all my money into it fould out it was a year to new ,and there was no class for it.I was then forced to find a older astropursang and again spend all my money fixing it up during the off season,only to find out that they made the newer one legal for that year.I raced with them for quite a few years only to see constent rule changes and people driving 1000 plus miles one way to be turned away and not allowed to race over some small rule infraction.By then vintage racing was picking up around here,so I returned to racing local.By this time I was 39 and couldn't wait to race in the over 40 class and the vintage 250 class.Then when I turned 40 they moved the class to the over 50 class and no longer had a vintage 250 class.It now was called the vintage 370 class and to my suprise 1/3 rd the bikes in the 370 class were either 400 2 strokes or illegal 400+4 strokes and that you no longer had to be old,and that they were even letting 12 year old kids into our"old man"class.My thoughts are the word vintage,looked up in the dictonary means "old"and to me 12 isn't old.But beeing the racer I am jumped right in,only to find out that my 250's wouldn't keep up,and I wasn't finishing where I wanted to be finishing,so again I had to "change".I bought 370 motors and started doing better and waited to turn 50 and to be able to race in that class.Then the year I finally turned 50 they dropped the over 50 vintage class and bumped it back to over 40 and allowed modern bikes to compete in it.So again I had to buy another bike to compete in that class.Again More "change"Now i'm hearing talk of knocking it back to over 25 class. W.T.F. Years back Rodger cut the open twins class,how many older riders did we loose to that?I have a friend that is 1/2 way through a bike build right now and is planning on making a return to racing next year,but after reading this post has put it on hold to see what classes will be offerd and weather or not he wants to compete and or finish his prodject.In the past years I have seen many disappointed racer's that have spent all off season working on bikes just to have the classes changed,usually at the last moment.If you do make changes at least do it early enough for riders to adjust for it.You mentioned that we need to keep the kids classes,as they are our future.I equally think the same of the"old man vintage classes",as they are the past,and after putting in decade's of racing,deserve a class,with no "crazy kids".In the past I have always found that car racing and motorcycle racing don"t mix,and even though the crowds and money sounds great,it ends up beeing a nightmare.The tracks are usually rough,prepaired with a sheeps foot,and not worth racing on.Cutting classes to fit in with the "car show"in my opionion is "change" and will cost in riders.Less classes will make for more riders in those classes,and more unmatched racing.Flat track racing has always had,and needs to have more classes,then car racing and cutting them I think you will only loose more riders.I guess I'm old but I still think the old class structure would still work today. PeeWee - 150 class - 250 class - 500 class - Open class Pro class "twin or single your choise" - vintage pro "single or twin your choise" 250 vintage"only because this class was by far the biggest class when they last ran it,and there are more 250's around than all other bikes put together" - 500 vintage - open vintage - and a over 45 class"any bike welcome Again just my thoughts.I have quit racing many times and all were not from the love of racing,but from the changing of classes.I don't think having just a vintage class"all sizes welcome,would be fair to the 250's
I do know that every time we make "changes" we will step on someone,and we will continue to loose riders. See Ya next year maybe,maybe not !!! RANDY58

[tudorpilot]

I would like to write more later, as time for thought and typing will allow....

I would like to give you some food for thought, given to me by Matt George....

"We can't go around making 30 different classes just so every single racer gets to have a trophy"

Too many classes equals boring racing.... Boring for the racers....Boring for the crowd....

Matt has a minimum of classes at his races. I have never lined up with fewer than 13 racers at the starting line. It has been as much as 18. Sure, my chances of winning, or getting a trophy, or a big check are fewer,,,,,BUT IT'S RACING..... Matt usually pays to tenth place at a race like this too. Pretty refreshing to get 10th place at Knoxville and get my entry fee plus $15...

This is just food for thought. I happen to like Matt George and the way he runs his races. Some of you may not, I'm fine with that...

More later,

Josh Trail

[tsmiley98]

Randy, it sounds like you were just on the edge of things and had a lot of bad luck due to timing. I can't say that I would still be around racing with all of that aggravation.

So you should be proud of sticking it out.

As far as the 25+ suggestion I made.. I have talked to several younger riders that would love to race vintage because they like the bikes and history that surrounds those bikes. There are several who couldnt find/afford a cheap competetive LEGAL 400 or smaller bike, and werent old enough to race a 500 (which was easy and affordable to find) So instead went and raced modern bikes.

So we have the future riders of the sport being groomed into racing modern bikes. What about the future of vintage racing?

That is why I say 25 is a decent age to let race. they are old enough to understand that "I need to get up and work tomorrow"

I was 28 when I went to my first flattrack race, started the next year racing, missed a year for military service and raced as much as I could this year when I was home. So in 4 years of watching the racing the ONLY place I have seen a a YOUNG guy beat the seasoned veteran racers is at the races in Davenport. An 18 year old named Jordan Baber. (who was the center of controversy over young immature riders racing against old guys) He was alot more mature than other riders on the track and seemed safer. Jerry Cheney still had no issues racing side by side with him at several races and they went back and forth.

So I hate to keep using this guy as an example but how many young guys do you see beat Bill Snyder when he wants to win? I have beat him a few races, but he shows time and time again that his experience is an advantage over my youth.

A couple great examples.. it took me two years to figure out that he slows up in a corner and you better get on the gas before he does or he leaves you in the dust off the corner, checking up or whatever you want to call it causes you to lose speed and he knows you are not ready to pass or accelerate.

Another is during a heat race I ended up passing him on teh last lap because we ran close the entire race. All he did was let me show him where I could pass him and shut me down the entire main.

KS fair races. I beat him the first race, he got me the second, and third but the third night was way too close. Tie goes to winner of the last race. I had a barely faster bike and kept poking a wheel in front of him. 2 laps to go he closed the door on me hard and I took a second place a few bike lenghs behind.

NE indoor two years ago. I was trying hard to get around him on the last lap and he went off the track after the finish. A guy asked him why he let me run him off the track. He said he went off on his own just because he would rather go that way then risk me possibly coming in the corner too fast and putting him in the wall.

Seems to me that the younger riders who are a lot faster move up to the pro class. I'm not the fastest guy on the track but if I do exceptionally well next year I may end up moving up a class and race for more than trophies.

There are many other things that are appealing to racers other than classes. If a guy wants to race he will make his bike fit in a class whether it is under powered or not.

Some things that are desireable to me are..

-Driving distance (5-6 hours is about the limits of it and that is hard to swallow some times when you add up the gas reciepts)

-Pit pass fees (Racers paying pit passes the same as non racers, sure it generates money but putting on a show and drawing a crowd does too. Racers spend enough money to race dont ya think? Between the cost of bikes, tires, something to haul the stuff with, race fuel, safety equipment, maintenance on all the above mentuioned) This weekend at Lincoln is a perfect example. I was a little mad at the cost of pit passes for racers, but considering I will still spend $200 less on racing there with higher pit passes it is ok because I dont have a hotel room or a 5-6 hour drive.

-Competition, sure there are guys out there that like to win by a lap everytime without anyone near them. I have won by a good 1/4 lap without a bike near me and that is not fun to me. I would rather lose by a wheel or race in the back of the pack for last place as long as there is competition. To this day one of my favorite races was when I was in last place racing for second to last place with Kyle Boyd. We were back and forth the entire race and neither one of us came off of the track disspointed that the other bikes out there were all a half lap ahead of us.

The suck of it all is that things change. I haven't been around the sport very long to see those changes. Modern bikes not being allowed to run framers, or not being allowed to run the exact frame as everyone else because it doesnt meet the age requirements by being a 2004 instead of a 2008. Fuel injection is pretty popular on new bikes now too. How long before yo ucant run a carb on the modern bikes? Tire rules caused maxxis to stop production on a great tire that many mamtures use.

Change is inevitable, the best way to do it is with input from the people who it affects.

[randymartin58]

I just want to clarify a few things.I am not trying to be negative,and I am VERY much appreciative that Randy and his crew continue to hold races,and are keeping this sport alive,exspecially in these hard times.They ALWAYS do a great job and are always thinking and trying to make things better.I also know that they are not there for the money,but for the love of the sport.I try never to bitch about anything,even sometimes when I should,but when someone asks me my opnion,I feel compeled to give it to them.I also understand that "change"happens,wether we like it or not.I'm just trying to show a few examples of what change does.It is nessicary to make changes as time changes,but just don't constantly change things,and when you do have to make changes,give ample time so riders can adjust for it.With this said I want to clarrify that I am not accusing Randy of changing everything to often.The AMA is a good example of what to much change does to the sport.How many American aftermarket companys did they hurt when they catered to big four japaness companys with there production rules?I still remeber the last race at Kannopolis with 188 riders there and four full rows of vintage twins on the line.I would love for that to be possible again,and I truely belive it can be.Now we have 50 or 60 riders,and we can't afford to loose any more.Maybe I live in the past,but I feel that to much change is not good.I don't want to see classes with 2 or 3 bikes in them either,nor do I want to get a 3rd place trophy for finishing last place.I to have had some of my best races well back in the pack.I would love to see 188 bike turn out again,and belive it CAN happen again.I also know that no one wants to build a bike,not knowing wether there class will be changed after its completed.There use to be more 250's than there was all the other bikes put together,and I belive there could be again,but no one wants to build one and run against 400+ bikes and or worry about not having a class for them.Please don't look at me as being negative.I know many other ex racers that that feel the same way as I do.I say save the classes even if you have to combined them,and if you do pay back 33% even if it means only paying one trophy for that class.As I said before no one wants a last place trophy.These are only my thoughts,if you don't agree with them fine,just let me have my opinion.Randy 58

[cherrypicker]

Thanks for your thoughts Randy. most on here are mature enough to have open dialogue and respect the opinions of others, even if they vary from their own.

One thing for everyone to keep in mind. Our intent is not to eliminate places for people to ride. We want a class for everyone. Randy's question was more to the order of is there a better "class structure" that we could be using so we DON'T have 3 bikes in a class and we DO have better racing overall. Unfortunately it may mean that some people (like TJ pointed out) only have 1 class to ride instead of 2.

And TJ, in response to your comment about age classes. I think and I could be wrong, but I think) Randy's thought here is more along the lines of all age classes instead of a 400, vintage open, 250, open am, etc.

Change is never easy. Believe me, I am a fan of doing things the same. But I also recognize that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a differnt result.

[priddydc]

Give me a place to race and I can usually be there or will do my best to make it. Thanks

[tsmiley98]

Randy, you havent offfended anyone. If we dont discuss our opinions then things change and people get mad because they end up finding out after its too late that they don't fit into a class .

Ideally we don't want to lose any classes. The more classes more people show up to have a place to fit in. I am just suggesting that when there are small classes that they are combined with other like bikes and can be scored separate. So at a show mixed with cars and time is important is there are 6-8 bikes in each class why not have separate heat and a single main? 12-16 bikes on the track. They are saving time and scored separate. Now there is plenty of action on the track for the fans and racers. I don't know how many people like or dislike the idea of combined classes being scored separate but the alternative is only having one class to race for all of the different bikes.

[bomber]

I wish I had all the answers, at my age I am not sure I even know the questions anymore. I think we all need to look at things from several different views.
As a business man, I cannot see how they can do it any cheaper. I normally spend $60 in pit passes and $50-$75 in entry fees depending on what race. If I can race three classes then that figures to about $2.70 per lap (8 practice, 18 heat, 24 main, if in three classes) Yes it is not cheap but neither are the costs for the promotor, ins, help, not to mention the great orange shirt crew. This is not a cheap sport, never has been never will be.
As a racer, I try to enter 3 classes if I can so that I can put in the most time on the track. I am happy if I can run two. I have raced where there are two classes scored separately on several occasions and I see no problem with it. If it makes for a better program I am all for it if it helps the program. If you are going to mix pros and amatuers, it would need to be an extra class to ride, as there is a lot of skill difference and many riders on both ends will not want to do that. Offer it one race and see who signs up.
If the promotor does not make money then we will not be back the next year. I believe that combining our program with other car related programs may in the end be very good for us. It will expose what we do to more fans and maybe gain interest in our sport from those who might not otherwise see us. I know some do not like it as they believe the track conditions are not good, but I have noticed that we are all on the same track, and the fast guys still seem to be the fast guys no matter what the conditions. On Pikes Peak the track conditions change everyday because of the weather and temps, the rule is race the mountain first, race your self second, race everyone else third.
Hope this helps give some food for thought. Remember these are not the only ideas, just my ideas. Hope to see everyone soon. Can't wait for ice race season!!

[tsmiley98]

Dec 1, 2011 15:16:30 GMT -5 bomber said:

I wish I had all the answers, at my age I am not sure I even know the questions anymore. I think we all need to look at things from several different views.
As a business man, I cannot see how they can do it any cheaper. I normally spend $60 in pit passes and $50-$75 in entry fees depending on what race. If I can race three classes then that figures to about $2.70 per lap (8 practice, 18 heat, 24 main, if in three classes) Yes it is not cheap but neither are the costs for the promotor, ins, help, not to mention the great orange shirt crew. This is not a cheap sport, never has been never will be.
As a racer, I try to enter 3 classes if I can so that I can put in the most time on the track. I am happy if I can run two. I have raced where there are two classes scored separately on several occasions and I see no problem with it. If it makes for a better program I am all for it if it helps the program. If you are going to mix pros and amatuers, it would need to be an extra class to ride, as there is a lot of skill difference and many riders on both ends will not want to do that. Offer it one race and see who signs up.
If the promotor does not make money then we will not be back the next year. I believe that combining our program with other car related programs may in the end be very good for us. It will expose what we do to more fans and maybe gain interest in our sport from those who might not otherwise see us. I know some do not like it as they believe the track conditions are not good, but I have noticed that we are all on the same track, and the fast guys still seem to be the fast guys no matter what the conditions. On Pikes Peak the track conditions change everyday because of the weather and temps, the rule is race the mountain first, race your self second, race everyone else third.
Hope this helps give some food for thought. Remember these are not the only ideas, just my ideas. Hope to see everyone soon. Can't wait for ice race season!!

You are exactly right, "It will expose what we do to more fans and maybe gain interest"

However there will be NO interest in seeing 2 or 3 bikes race each other unless they are in each others tailpipe the ENTIRE race. Even then they still see 2 bikes and wonder why there are not more participants.

We can race as we always have but there will not be a lot of promoters wanting to put on shows if they have to squeeze in 20 bike classes with their car program. A couple Am and some Pro classes are what you end up with. Hoping there is a big turn out is not fun for the promoter. (Fans or riders)

If it is a money race some guys dont want to drive to donate to the "shoe in" also its not fair for people to come a cherry pick pro am classes. (seen it happen a few times)

Figure we have about 3 1/2 months to have good discussion, input and ideas on how to make the program better for the riders, fans and promoters. Or we can just not do anything and see what Randy, Tom, Tammy and the gang put together.