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Post by tsmiley98 on Dec 1, 2009 10:30:36 GMT -5
Josh has a good point, regular races on the same weekend every month makes it easier for people to schedule to go watch or race. (EX: the 3rd weekend every month)
NFTRA, uhm yea, my short experience of them (roger) was not good, so we will avoid that, (video availible) if anyone has questions of my experience.
As far as big bikes, do they account for more riders/entries? Should their opinions weigh more on the decisions? While I enjoy the big twins it is not enjoyable to watch 2 or 3 bikes run. The big singles class seems to have a larger rider count (although some small bikes tend to jump up and run with em)
The MODERN 450 Pro guys, yes their opinions should have some more weight, as they are the fastest bikes on the track, and fast = crowd pleasing.
Regular series + fair races seems to be a good idea.
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Post by British Ghost on Dec 1, 2009 18:18:42 GMT -5
What will it take, better end of the year awards, more races, fewer races, short tracks, half miles, Kansas, Missouri, Arkansas, Nebraska? End of year awards no problem... I was tickled to get anything actually. More races yes. We went to MN, IA, KY... just to race. Mixed tracks are good with preferences for Jeeps size or longer (I don't have another ((bike of lesser cc's)) at the moment). KS, MO, AR, NE, and throw in IA too, is all good for us. Two day events are fun and looked forward too. I think I stayed for any of those in whichever state I raced. Maybe not a lot of help but there's a penny's worth. For me it will all depend of course on the old blue truck now with 257k plus miles... DB 309 |
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Post by rob51g on Dec 1, 2009 18:46:01 GMT -5
Ok,to those that seem to be butt hurt by my last post,let me go over it again. I didn't say your opinions are less important than any others. I said we had only heard from riders that ride 400 vintage,250 modern or smaller other than me. I was hoping to get ideas from other riders. As for there only being a few twins so they're not to be listened to(as TJ mentioned),I recall being at Clay Center and watching Mr.Bill,Josh and Kyle in a 400 class. By my count that's 3 riders in that class too. That's the problem we are trying to fix,rider turnout. And as for the 1.2 or 3 class comment(Josh),I'm pretty sure you have 1 of those bikes for sale so there goes another entry.,but not to worry,I should have a twin full time and maybe another bike as well. Does that mean I get 3 votes?jk. I'll be quiet now as well unless I need to explain myself again.
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Post by tsmiley98 on Dec 1, 2009 21:59:26 GMT -5
Ok,to those that seem to be butt hurt by my last post,let me go over it again. I didn't say your opinions are less important than any others. I said we had only heard from riders that ride 400 vintage,250 modern or smaller other than me. No one butt hurt here Rob, Just wanting to make sure everyone's opinion counts as we ALL participate and NOBODY should be held in higher regards than another. I was hoping to get ideas from other riders. As for there only being a few twins so they're not to be listened to(as TJ mentioned), As you will see below my text that I typed conveyed no such message, so don't interpret anything more than it is. As far as big bikes, do they account for more riders/entries? Should their opinions weigh more on the decisions? While I enjoy the big twins it is not enjoyable to watch 2 or 3 bikes run. I recall being at Clay Center and watching Mr.Bill,Josh and Kyle in a 400 class. By my count that's 3 riders in that class too. That's the problem we are trying to fix,rider turnout. This is also not enjoyable to watch. Just like Sat night we had 7 bikes only to have 3 run sunday in Lincoln. BORRRINGGGGG! And as for the 1.2 or 3 class comment(Josh),I'm pretty sure you have 1 of those bikes for sale so there goes another entry.,but not to worry,I should have a twin full time and maybe another bike as well. Does that mean I get 3 votes? jk. I'll be quiet now as well unless I need to explain myself again. Glad to see you still have a sense of humor and are not taking any of this to heart. We are afterall arguing the same point (WE NEED MORE RIDERS) ->>>To show up CONSISTANTLY <<<- besides Rob, you and Josh ride for the same team, BTW Rob, what were we voting for again?  You do realize that this is the most action the board has had for some time. So the people we know that are not actively involved in this need to get a push start so they can be a part of THEIR racing hobby/career. Have a good evening Rob, see you at the next race. |
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Post by cracing on Dec 2, 2009 16:04:56 GMT -5
I have given thoughts to the matter of attendance on several occasions over the past several years and I keep having a few, common, thoughts enter my head.
As already mentioned, at least once, take a big map of the area and poke a pin in the location of every rider who participated in the past year or two. To further this concept, use different color pins to differentiate between 'regulars' and those who attend sporadically. Maybe a color for attendances of 1-5 events, another for 6-10 events, etc. I believe this combination of information would give a fairly clear picture of where the rider base exists and where there is potential to pick up more riders who may become regulars if you visit their locale.
If you want to get more elaborate, run a string from the rider's hometown to the events he/she participated in. This would provide an indicator of how far a particular participant is willing to travel (of course, a computer generated map, pins, and 'strings' might be easier to work with).
Once it is determined where the rider base exists, make attempts to hold events in the areas best serving all those who have participated.
Also, I am placing a lot of faith in our association with the Wichita Jeeps Motorcycle Club. It was once a time honored tradition to visit the Jeeps facility to participate in short track and TT events and I am hoping our connection with them will bolster our rider counts through member participation and member spectating. For the life of me, I cannot come up with a good reason two day events are consistantly poorly attended on the second day.
Which brings up another idea..........Randy, you probably remember the KMSA's point system that included BONUS races and CLASSIC races. If you think riders will attend for points and year end awards, day two could be a Bonus Race or a Classic Race. Of course, a few other events throughout the season could also be Bonus/Classic races, just don't always use them as tail twisters.
Over the years, I have learned one absolute regarding race organizers, participants, and track owners. A bad track will damage a reputation, a consistently bad track will keep riders away (for what it is worth, I have also noticed most tracks that regularly host cart and mini sprint events have a handle on track prep).
One last note today...............(this is constructive criticism)
PLEASE POST EVENT RESULTS AND POINT STANDINGS ON A TIMELY BASIS.
The riders and fans deserve more. Every last one of them is a customer and a potential former customer.
Dan
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Post by cracing on Dec 4, 2009 11:17:31 GMT -5
Sorry I killed the thread..........  For additional thought......... Current AMA membership is nearly 300,000 (most get the monthly publication). Sanctioned events are published free of charge provided the sanctioning fees are paid to the AMA early enough to meet printing deadlines. Anybody have any opinions on AMA sanctioning? Bring in more Pro riders? Lend an air of credibility for those not familiar with the GPFTS? AMA membership too expensive for the competitors? AMA sanctions too expensive for the promoter? AMA insurance requirements too demanding (too much $$$) AMA sanctioning a good value? Or not? Any thoughts? Anybody? Dan |
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Post by rob51g on Dec 4, 2009 11:50:18 GMT -5
You didn't kill it,we were done beating on each other.lol. I think the problem with AMA is the cost to the promoter. I'm sure Tammy or Randy know what it is,I don't.
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Post by verticaltwin on Dec 4, 2009 13:34:15 GMT -5
I wonder if the rider count was better at the Jeeps races? Seems like we would pick up some Jeeps riders just by using their facility. Anybody know the numbers? Dan brought up another good point... Results on the website! My memory isn't worth a hoot, so its nice to look back and see who won what and when. (then TJ couldn't have messed with my mind on the season standings  ) I know thats a lot of work, but I'd be glad to help if possible. I think that revving up the website would be a good thing, making it easier to navigate around for race schedules, results, etc. Tammy - Check your private messages... |
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Post by cracing on Dec 4, 2009 13:59:44 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300]You didn't kill it,we were done beating on each other.lol. I think the problem with AMA is the cost to the promoter. I'm sure Tammy or Randy know what it is,I don't.[/glow]
AMA event fees are $100 per day, and I think it takes $250 per year to be an AMA Promoter (club, race organizations, etc). Insurance cost is higher for AMA events, as they are kind of picky about not getting tied up in litigation resulting from liability issues.
Oh.......did I mention TT? ;D
Sorry if I missed any earlier opportunities.
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Post by rck on Dec 4, 2009 21:18:40 GMT -5
Dan,
A few years ago being an AMA promoter added a lot of creditability to your programs because pro riders were racing for advancement points. Now that we have entered the era of the DMG, please correct me if I am wrong, but I think the days of advancement points are gone, so there is nothing to be gained for the riders to be AMA sanctioned.
There are riders, motorcycle and quad, that would like to try our sport not knowing if they will like it or not. If you hold an AMA sanctioned event all racers must belong to the AMA or the ATVA in order to race. This makes their first race a little on the expensive side, with a forty dollar membership plus pit pass, plus entry fee. I know, for a fact, when we were AMA sanctioned we lost first time riders because of the expense. The last thing our sport needs is chase away possible future racers.
The AMA is a very good and needed organization, but at this point in time they have nothing to offer promoters, racers or the GPFTS.
Randy
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Post by raineman13g on Dec 5, 2009 13:17:12 GMT -5
Hey All.
Just a couple of thoughts. Track prep is a large part. I can take the bike out on the dirt roads where I live but thats no FUN. It was getting to the point of just trying to survive the time on the track and the FUN factor was gone. I did not race at a lot of tracks that where poorly prepped (I used prepped very loosely) with comments made that I owed it to the spectators to ride any way. They were offered my bike to make a few laps to see what we were expected to put up with. (By the way they wouldn't do it) Class rules are there for a reason,age, size,years etc. Last year there was a lot of talk about all the big motors in Kansas. If it is advertised that the top 3 will be torn down then DO IT. I raced one race last year for the last time because of that. We race for the FUN and COMRODERY not the MONEY. (some younger kids have the chance to make money) Just not my old a$$. I have to be able to go to work Monday so I can race the next time. I cut my teeth at Jeeps. One thing they did that really helped out was they paid money to all the classes not just pro. We had a $15 entry fee, the club took $5 of that and the other $10 went into the purse for that class, they paid 50% of the riders. Yes if you have a bad race you didn't get any back but for those that rode there a$$ off it at least helped with some of the gas. Trophy's melt when they hit that hot engine and they don't have much BTU content unless you burn them in a fire to keep warm.lol sometimes Early in the season thats not a bad idea.
Give a break on entry fee or pit pass for the second day to help the rider count. I promoted a TT track in the middle of nowhere (ask Bill Snyder) we new that the spectators where friends and family. We got entry fees only the track owner took the gate/pit pass money which was either $5 or $8. By taking the $5 dollars from the amateur classes we were able to bye a water tank and gas powered water pump and a steel I-beam to pull the marbles from the track.
Just my 2 cents.
Scott
Raineman13g
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Post by thumper on Dec 5, 2009 23:14:45 GMT -5
I'm not sure if I can offer much with this discussion but here goes.
A consistent schedule would help. Every two weeks or so would be great. Regular races at Jeeps along with the county fair venues may be the answer to that.
I believe we can develop a following of sorts with repeat performances season after season. Kind of like we have at Stockton so try to book the same venue year after year.
It would be nice if all the trophies identified the venue and race class. I'm sure cost is an issue there so I'll remain glad for anything I get. (okay when I get)
I will always find the money to come to the races. One day. Two day. What ever. I will go where ever the orange shirts are. I love to travel so the trip is just as important to me as the race. Well almost anyway.
That's it for now.
Jim
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Post by priddydc on Dec 9, 2009 21:41:59 GMT -5
I just wanted to say I did the last jeeps flat track race this year in the amateur quad class and I had a blast. I would like to see more races at jeeps or know when their is gonna be races else where in Kansas. I'm 33 years old and my body takes this a little better than motorcross racing anymore. I was going to go to the Nebraska race but didn't have the money. The nice part this is only a 25 entry fee compared to 35 to race motorcross. I think a discount for the second day would have more people come back the second day.
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Post by xl350 on Dec 10, 2009 0:52:31 GMT -5
I have too far to drive to make a lot of your races but the suggestions I've seen so far that might bring people from farther out are the track prep[good tracks=more fun],2day events are tough but Friday night and Sat night seems to work best. The people that make Fri get a discount for Sat. When you have a long way to drive, taking Fri off seems better than Mon. Start late Fri so local people can get there and not miss work. Trophy's for kids? and money for the rest. I know it can't be much but trophies cost money,so. Combine or eliminate some classes. 2,3,4person races are boring[family and freinds excluded]to watch. Again, track prep. Above all, don't let any of those cheatin sum$!&*$#! from Iowa on the grounds. Pat Orman. ps. last year contingency product[money]was brought up, no luck?
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Post by bomber on Dec 10, 2009 19:08:03 GMT -5
First off, let me say that I have never promoted a race, so please excuse my ignorance on some matters. I have however run charity events, and have been the comptroller of large corporations and currently own a small S corporation that pays for my groceries. I also taught Tae Kwon-do for 20 years. I give this information only as reference for where my ideas come from. Remember if I ruffle some feathers, that these are just ideas and observations, not absolutes, take them as such.
1. Define exactly what you want to achieve and in what order. Make money, highest rider count, large crowds, what states we race in or what ever. This needs to be listed 1,2,3.... Then you can begin to make goals and decisions that will get you there in that order. Example, my martial arts schools main goal was to share my knowledge and have the highest quality instruction and students, money was last on my list, thus I lost money all but 3 years.
2. As business man, if it makes me money I keep it, if not it goes down the road. This applies to employees, customers, and types of income.
Do not waste time and energy on things that do not advance your stated goals. If races at Jeeps are successful then keep and build on that, same with any other venue. I would love more NE races, but if they do not meet the goals, then too bad they have to go. It is better to lose 1 or two racers then 10. Do not confuse this with branching out for new territory, some times you lose at first to win in the end, but do not be afraid to say hey this does not work, or one more try and thats it. The NE indoor was a good example, we needed a good showing and we got one, now maybe we have a chance at a track this summer that wants to run once a month, not for sure, but I bet he is thinking about it.
3. You can not be everything to everybody. Classes that work stay, classes that do not go. If you have a class that is iffy, then have the flexibility for a catch all class, just make sure it is advertised that way, if they show up and do not want to run it then that is their decision. I also like the idea of running two classes together, start one on the front row, the second on the back row. Would this cause some riders to not show up, probably, but again I will concentrate on the classes that work not the ones that do not. If you really want to race you will find a way to fit the program. If it shortens the program then I can do more laps, have a B main, king of the hill, spend more time with the crowd.
4. We must have more interaction with the fans, before the races after the races what ever it takes. If they care about the riders they will come and they will travel. Autographs before the races, after, during, whenever we can. Example I love college football, I can watch any college level game. I will skip Saturday football for other things unless the Huskers are playing, then I am glued to the TV. Example at the NE indoor my 5 year old daughter Dakota was constantly visiting Aaron King and Colt Chebultz in their pits. She wanted to give them hand stamps for doing a good job. They both found time for her. Colt gave her a ride on his bike outside, Aaron took off his race jersey, signed it and then gave it to her. You better believe that Colt and Aaron are her two favorite racers, she was much more concerned with how they did then how her Pappy did, and that is just fine. Remember the Viper giving away trophies, how popular he was. Nick Toon once gave me a trophy not because of what I did in a race but because I stepped in as an EMT and took care of an unconscious quad rider at Stockton, you better believe that is my favorite trophy. It does not take much, but the fans have to care or they will not show up. This is just as important as any race class. The program must contain fan time.
5. The Orange shirt crew does a fantastic job, remember they do it because they love the sport, this is not there means of income. I am all for having a multi person pit discount as long as it does not hurt them. If they have to shell out for us to race, we will all be back on country roads and pastures before to long. A typical race for me costs about $95.00 to $110.00 a night. Yea its a lot of money but it is better then no races. As for discounts for two day races, that to me boils down to can you do the second race cheaper? If not then refer back to #2.
6. I still think we need to find a way to reach out to the MX crowd. I hear the same thing from every MX rider I talk to that has tried flattrack, "you guys are great, everyone was so helpful, no bad attitudes like we have at our races all the time." May be a special trophy or prize for an MX only class, no DT tires, suspension, just regular MX bikes. Also no crossover, no DT riders in the MX class and vice versa. Give them a candy coated carrot to get them in. The one who like it will then be willing to invest in tires, suspension and such. We especially need the young ones, they are my only exception to the class rule, we need kids to race or we will soon have no racers. Dakota entered her first race at Fred's, came in dead last, first time in traffic, she "won" a shirt and a hat and was thrilled. She has now come to me and asked if she can go ice racing because she wants to race some more!!
7. One more item, on the subject of illegal bikes. I have over the years heard many complaints that this is illegal or that is too big. Easy solution, I believe anybody on the lead lap can put up cash and have the bike torn down to check, but I have not heard of one instance this has happened. If you think that is why you lost put the money up and find out. If you are afraid of rocking the boat, then quit riding that class, it will soon fix itself as others will do the same. One or two people get checked and the word will get out.
Well thats my two cents worth, I hope there are some ideas that can be of help. As stated before, listen to everything and use what works. In the end no one person has all the answers and how smart you are depends on where you are standing at the present time. No one solution will make everyone happy, so we have to make the choices that benefit the most people and still reach our goals.
Michael "Bomber" Kassebaum
CRF450R #4
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) I know thats a lot of work, but I'd be glad to help if possible. I think that revving up the website would be a good thing, making it easier to navigate around for race schedules, results, etc.